>When I was told that a second gay male friend of mine was marrying a women I said quite seriously 'well I read that heterosexuality is the new gay'

I knew a lesbian at university whose girlfriend had a sex-change, thus rendering them both, technically, heterosexual.

>I knew a lesbian at university whose girlfriend had a sex-change, thus rendering them both, technically, heterosexual.

I saw a similar couple on 'Trisha' a while ago.

It happens, certainly more often than gay male couples realign themselves surgically along "hetero" lines. I know someone who's going through the process right now.

I wonder why gay males rarely do this? Or maybe I'm just sheltered. Anyone know any gay male couple who've managed to make their parents happy again by becoming a nice John and Jane, thus making the wedding photos less of a family talking point?

Most of my best black friends are gay.

Most of my best friends are enemies.

Armchair sociology tells me that more gay men have sex changes in countries where homosexuality is frowned upon. And homosexuality and transexulity aren't the same thing, Mr Butler, you are just sheltered.

For a girl to have a sex change operation, where do they get the penis from? Or do they use modern technology to craft one out of existing skin?

Walls?

I saw a documentary a while back where a girl wanted a sex change and they were basically given a penis which they could then press in a certain place to give them an erection.

What they'd then use it for I don't know.

They can have a phalloplasty, which involves taking a muscle, and skin from their arm to create a cock. It has a plastic rod put into it that you can bend up or down.

What I *really* don't understand (and there are more of these than you'd believe possible) are men who get a sex-change to become 'lesbians'. Now why would someone put themselves through two separate kinds of prejudice? And if you want to shag women, why not just stay as a man and do it without anyone raising an eyelid at it?

And if you want to shag women, why not just stay as a man and do it without anyone raising an eyelid at it?

Unless you happen to be a Roman Catholic Bishop.

>And homosexuality and transexulity aren't the same thing, Mr Butler, you are just sheltered.


Er, please. I do know that. We were talking about the point at which they cross over - where a homosexual effectively realigns themselves with the hetero crowd by swapping sex. The difference between homo and transexuality was precisely what sparked the discussion.

The sex-change operation depoliticises someone's sexuality, in a sense, which is why it's fascinating. A woman who preferred other women - putting themselves in one social group - suddenly leaves the lesbian community by changing her sex.

The last time I ran into the man (ex girl) I know who has undergone gender realignment, it was at a very lesbian-centred club night, and it struck me that by undergoing the sex-change, he had positioned himself outside his previous social group of "sexually politicised" lesbians, and just become another bloke in the room.

>I saw a documentary a while back where a girl wanted a sex change and they were basically given a penis which they could then press in a certain place to give them an erection.

Do they make these for men, too?

Yes.

And the place you have to press them is against Kate Beckinsale.

>>by undergoing the sex-change, he had positioned himself outside his previous social group of "sexually politicised" lesbians, and just become another bloke in the room.

Ordinary?

And you seem to be viewing transsexualiy as an extension to homosexaity. It's two completely different issues, which is what my point about it being more prevalent in countries where homosexuality is frowned upon. They're basically forced into a one sexuality when really they belong to another. I don't think I can name a single homosexual I know who lies around at night thinking, "oh I wish I had a vagina, life would be so much more simple." I'd hate it, I imagine my boyfriend would hate it too. You'd miss out on all that penis on penis action for a start.
I think, perhaps, what you might be doing is projecting your own desire to be a woman onto a social group who are perfectly happy being men.

In all seriousness, I shouldn't worry about other people's sexualities, because you probably couldn't even understand your heterosexual friends' sexualities if you, or anyone, had the adequate language to describe them. That's not meant as a put down, I just feel that it's an intrinsic aspect of sexuality. To come up with the two boxes, gay and straight, and then struggle to define the immense variety of sexualities that exists from such a flawed dichotomy is a pitfall best avoided.

da, my keyboard is broken.

You must get new one, tovarisch.

i vote for 'naff modern post-ironic trueisms' as a naff modern post-ironic trueism

Boone. You make a lot of good points about gender roles and sexual choices, but you've misunderstood my stance and interest completely.

No, I'm not talking about homosexuals, and I'm not talking about you or anyone you know who's happy with their sexual orientation and gender identity. I'm talking about transgendered people and transsexuals. In as far as homosexuality is an issue at all, I'm only talking about those homosexuals whose sexuality was an extension of their transsexuality - transsexuals who adopted a homosexual lifestyle before their change of sex, as an attempt to find some kind of acceptable lifestyle.

I'm certainly not implying that all homosexuals would change sex if possible - I'm not an idiot. I'm making an observation about a specific case - a lesbian reinventing herself as a straight man and the social repercussions - and wondering if it ever happens in other contexts. Just an honest question, and one sparked by a specific observation of a specific person I know.

Don't mistake a sincere enquiry about transgenderism, social groupings and sex roles for a critique or misunderstanding of your lifestyle. I'm not "confused" about what homosexuality is. Please.

And the issue of the "two boxes, gay and straight" in society that you raise, in an attempt to imply that I'm being simplistic, is what prompted my initial interest in this issue - does someone's gender realignment move them crudely from one box to another, or place them outside society altogether? And, more importantly, does this hurt the individual if they are keen to adopt their new sexual identity totally and "blend in" to societally sanctioned gender roles (straight and gay)?

And, in passing, "my own desire to become a woman" is an issue very rarely on my mind. In fact you're the first person to spot it. Ta. I'm a lot clearer about my lifestyle choices now. Very helpful.

So this was just badly phrased?

>I wonder why gay males rarely do this

And as for the your desire to be a woman, I was just being facetious to make a point.

>I wonder why gay males rarely do this?

You've clearly never lived in Yorkshire.

>Anyone know any gay male couple who've managed to make their parents happy again by becoming a nice John and Jane, thus making the wedding photos less of a family talking point?

Simplistic arse.

>Er, please. I do know that.

*Patronising* arse. Express yourself a little more delicately in the first place, and you wouldn't get a response like Boone's, non?

>I'd hate it, I imagine my boyfriend would hate it too.

Er, that'd be me, then.

>I'm not "confused" about what homosexuality is. Please.

One word sentences = condescension.

OK. Can we stop this? I'll say I'm sorry for asking a flippant question. We were talking about lesbians realigning themselves along hetero lines (and I didn't bring the subject up, btw) - something that does happen and raises interesting questions of gender identity - and I, taking the thought for a walk, wondered whether it ever happened with gay men too. Not an offensive or inflammatory question, surely? You can just say "no" if you like, without taking personal offence, misinterpreting it as an attack on gay men's sexual preferences or feeling you have to rip into me in return.

So I'm sorry if you read it as an offensive affront to you or your lifestyle, but it was intended as a question, not a statement.

Please accept my apologies, and believe me, no offence was meant. I have my answer now, between the brickbats, and it's "no." Great.