ML: Paul defends his choice of subject there. It has upset a lot of people, John Carey. He seems to be saying that there is no subject which cannot be the subject of a comedy.

John Carey: Yeah, well I think that's true. What I disliked about this programme - and I disliked it very much and most of Morris's work - is exactly, really, what Paul was saying about reminding us what feeling is because I don't think that is what he does. It seems to me that what he does is to - yes- say that you'll satirise media coverage, but there are no values that come from him. What does he think? What does his programme think about paedophilia? You have no inkling except that...

ML: Well, this is the crucial thing, he tries to remain neutral on that subject, not on the subject of the news coverage but the paedophilia itself.

JC: Well, remain neutral, except that he shows disgusting images, which would disgust most people, which are to do with paedophilia, so....it's hardly neutral. Obviously offensive, he must know it's offensive, so what you have is a kind of intellectual snobbery, it seems to me: "We are above values, we are intellectuals", and that's what I hate about the programme, the sneering, self-righteous tone with which he treats members of the general public and celebrities. How ever he makes them say what they say....it makes them look like fools.

ML: On the other hand, John, he would say - I assume - that you did have, during recent events, you had lynch-mobs at various times. You had a paediatrician forced out of her home by people who misunderstood the word. Now he would say that he is attacking that level of misunderstanding and hysteria in society, I suspect.

JC: How about the American dancing tots that were looked at, and the presentation of a rap singer who has affairs with seven year old girls? What's his attitude there; is he saying because people do give sexual values to young children, it's reprehensible? Is he or isn't he? I mean, what is he saying? It's not responsible to say nothing, or just to mock.

ML: I suspect he's saying that liberals tolerate rap singers who sing about murder and other violence against women, but not when it was children, I suspect. But anyway....

ML: Elaine Showalter?

Elaine Showalter: Well, I thought it was really hilarious, a brilliant piece of alternative comedy, and so broadly done. I thought the satire was so broad, and there was so much warning about it with all the hoo-hah in the newspapers about whether it would be shown that certainly people were well-protected if they wanted to get away from it. The only thing I objected to was actually the way he treated the celebrities, and I thought this part of it - the prankster bit - those were cheap shots. He's a satirist, he's aiming really high, he's taking a lot of risks...

ML: Isn't it fantastically revealing, though, that these celebrities, asked to read out things about paedophiles sharing more genes with crabs than they do with normal human beings? And they just read it. It says something about the life of celebrities.

ES: Well, it does, but it makes fools out of people who are easy targets....We're not talking here about Tony Blair. We're talking about low-level celebritiies...

ML: Lord Coe.

ES: Lord Coe, even Phil Collins, and I think the show would be just as funny without that. I think that part of it really panders to something very cheap, you know - "Let's see them behave idiotically" and the satire, which I thought was pretty hard-hitting, doesn't really get the audience it deserves.

PM: That's what makes it fantastically funny, because as high minded as he goes philosophically with some of the things he's up to...I mean, the very idea that a pervert would watch television and, because of Phil Collins, saying "No, damn, I'm wrong, I'm givin' it up". And the very idea that these people think it's important - Phil Collins, Richard Blackwood...presenting Top Of The Pops tonight without a care in the world, and it's not occurred to him what an absolute buffoon he's made of himself. The very idea that, again, they use words that are emptied out of any meaning, is a very important part.

ML: I accept that, and I thought there was a very funny sequence, a very revealing sequence in which a policeman is asked what violence is acceptable, and what isn't. But the problem is, we have to accept that the NSPCC, the thousands of complaints, they're not about the involvement of Phil Collins, they're about the involvement of children, and many of the complaints relate to a particular scene....

[EXTRACT: PEGG IN STOCKS AS GERARD CHOTE FROM MILIT-PEDE]

ML: One of the trickier scenes from Brass Eye, which has raised many objections today. Paul Morley, you've called him a genius, and said how funny it is. Now, a lot of people found that pretty horrifying. The question is: What is the target there?

PM: I maintain that it's television, essentially. And again, 1000 complaints, even if you multiply it by the number of people who haven't, is not usually a great amount.

ML: Quite a lot in TV terms.

PM: In TV terms it is.

ML: For a Channel 4 programme.

ES: There'd be more complaints about dead hamsters.

PM: Yeah, well, anything involving animals. I think in a way, for me, the great thing about Chris Morris is that 20 years ago, looking forward to how comedy and indeed tragedy would be in 2001, that's what I'd hope would have been going on. Strong...

ML: John Carey, presumably, that was one of the scenes that made you queasy.

JC: Absolutely. The belligerent tone, and also...it's not a question of how many complaints, it's whether you or I judge it to be disgusting to bring a child into a situation like that.

ML: I have to say I've looked at that sequence a couple of times and we don't know this, but it is possible to film that sequence without the child hearing the dialogue.

JC: I know about that, yes.

ML: It's a technique they use where they use dummy words and then dub them in later. And that may well have happened. But anyway, there's more discussion tonight to add to much that there's been today about Brass Eye, which will be repeated tonight on Channel 4 at 12.10.

Thank you.

Cheers. Sounded better coming from you than the TV. :)

You're both very welcome.

Today's Telegraph editorial:

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/dt?ac=005645034226889&rtmo=a54hq4CJ&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/01/7/28/dl01.html

>Today's Telegraph editorial:
>
>http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/dt?ac=005645034226889&rtmo=a54hq4CJ&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/01/7/28/dl01.html

Sorry, wrong thread.

Cheers Justin. I've ordered that book you told me about, too. You are a fine man.

Thanks Justin, I missed that last night.

>
>ES: There'd be more complaints about dead hamsters.

Was this a deliberate Morrisism? Made me laugh out loud, anyway (which is more than BES did - sorry) "You'd make more money by auctioning dogs!"

>>ES: There'd be more complaints about dead hamsters.
>
>Was this a deliberate Morrisism? Made me laugh out loud, anyway (which is more than BES did - sorry) "You'd make more money by auctioning dogs!"

"The ITC has had more than 500 [complaints for BES] - a figure only beaten by the screening of the movie The Last Temptation Of Christ, which prompted an organised campaign by Christian groups, and a TV ad for Levi's featuring a "dead" hamster."

>Was this a deliberate Morrisism? Made me laugh out loud, anyway (which is more than BES did - sorry) "You'd make more money by auctioning dogs!"

Sorry to burst the bubble but it's a reference to the Levis ad in which a hamster gets very bored and dies.

Anyone see liquid news last night. There was a feature on Brass Eye, and guess who was presenting the show? Everyone's favourite Iain Lee!
In case you were wondering, he thought the show was genius, particularly the line '...smells of hammers'

>Anyone see liquid news last night. There was a feature on Brass Eye, and guess who was presenting the show? Everyone's favourite Iain Lee!
>In case you were wondering, he thought the show was genius, particularly the line '...smells of hammers'

No surprises - vast amounts of the BES had the Lee stench hanging over it. He must feel so flattered.

>>Anyone see liquid news last night. There was a feature on Brass Eye, and guess who was presenting the show? Everyone's favourite Iain Lee!
>>In case you were wondering, he thought the show was genius, particularly the line '...smells of hammers'
>
>No surprises - vast amounts of the BES had the Lee stench hanging over it. He must feel so flattered.

I don't think that's true ("anymore," you cry.) No wait, let me finish. I only mentioned Daisy Donovan because of Julia Davis and also Doon's "he really is a shit" line.

Iain Lee would never have the imaginative orthogonality to come up with the idea of hammers having a particular smell. He'd say, "no... change that to: the smell of my cock! Hur hur!"

Actually, watching his over-excited-to-have-a-job face last night, you could really see him hunched in front of the TV, trousers round his ankles, on Thursaday night. Not a pleasent site, i can tell you.
Yes, and he also repeated the hammers line later in the show! Wonderful!

Fair enough, Lee wouldn't have written such a line, but look beyond the flashy presentation and frenetic items and there was an overwhelming shrug of will-this-do?. The same 11ocs mentality all over. And that's why Jon's point (in another thread) about the current timeframe idea being a bad idea is spot on. This special smelt of a bunch of writers reading some papers and then trying to be funny about things in them. Rather than the instinctive joy of most of Morris's work. And some of the points satirising paedophilia are screeched in such an elementary way that it results in a shapeless, untidy whole. This is the kind of rushed mentality that brought us the 11ocs, and so it is not a comparison I use lightly. But sadly, it looks like a lot more TV comedy is going to look like this in the future. Style over content, explaining the jokes for the idiots watching but at no point developing the ideas into something compelling or joyous. I've had enough.

Hmm... some fair points in there, but I'm detecting another smell, too. The smell of Justin retreating into the land of perfect comedy with his video collection, occasionally popping out to reject any new efforts as hopelessly derivative. You love comedy right? Well, I'd hate to see you miss some, chum. "Don't Give Up" as the Bush once sang.

There've been good moments this year - Attention Scum, Adam & Joe, South Park is rolling along nicely, People Like Us was fine. God forbid I liked Kiss Me Kate. But all of these plough their own furrow, not especially tapping into some zeitgeist like the papers try and convince us. Snobbish? It probably sounds that way, though it's not meant to. But believe me...whether it's been One Foot In The Grave or Les Dawson, The Day Today or Soap, Seinfeld or Python, I've really enjoyed comedy for most if not all of my 31 years. I don't want that to come to an end. But if a supposedly uncompromising artist like Morris produces something like 'that' on Thursday, makes you wonder....

I remain hopeful, though.

ops, must pay more attention - from the 'What the papers say' thread:

Surprised no body has mentioned last night's Liquid News (as far as I know anyway) -

http://mudhole.spodnet.uk.com/~frogger/liquid_news_bes.rpm

http://mudhole.spodnet.uk.com/~frogger/liquid_news_bes.rm

One of the two will work.

Thanks for the transcribe, I missed it.
Cheers.

Fanny's keeping quiet about it, but there's an mp3 of the discussion on: http://members.aol.com/doesmy/