All this whining about the situation with apparently no positive action being taken is getting pretty irritating.

What do you suggest we do? Sabotage TV transmitters?

Yes, yes, yes, but what are you suggesting we do? Short of not going to Edinburgh (which is admittedly a sod of a sight easier than going), or switching off a programme you know will be shit (I did not watch Edinburgh Or Bust, and will not be watching the 11 OClock Show - I should point out ratings don't take into account those viewers who hate the programmes they subject themselves to*), what's left? You've asked for our ideas, but short of mass murder (which is, I gather, illegal), I'm not sure there's anything we can do. Or is the first posting of this strand aimed at the "pros"?


*It's partly my fault something like Game On was a riproaring success - I tuned in week after week dumbfounded at its lack of insight, structure or (an important one, this) jokes, but oblivious to the off switch. Were the three and a half million other regular viewers thinking the same thing as me? Bugger. Not doing that anymore.

First of all, we need to know how many of you *want* this situation to be changed. There's no point being a martyr to a cause that nobody really cares about - we need *your* suggestions as well...

It's not just comedy, though, is it? It's the BBC believing that Britain actually needs a fourth bloody weekly episode of EastEnders, or pitiful late-night dramas about clubbers and their casual E addictions (translation: young people really are spectacularly inarticulate cunts). It's Channel 4's excruciating B** B*****, now integrating all its cast into other formats the nanosecond they're ejected. Now that the unentertaining spitefulness in fictional programming has reached saturation point, TV companies are encouraging "the public" to treat each other like shit as well. There's an afternoon quiz show on BBC2 which virtually rewards bullying with cold hard cash. The news (on all channels) doesn't seem to realise The Day Today was a comedy. Robbie Fucking Williams.

This is the media now - and disagreeing is not an option. It's bigger than bloody comedy - after all, what's comedy? Anyone can do that - look at the Friday episode of Newsnight, look at the increasingly meaningless I Love The 70s with Harriott, Theakston, Flett and Maconie. Anyone can make wry observations about defunct culture that's still very much available in any case. So why aren't we all doing it, eh?

This is the media world, and I loathe it. I don't know what to do about it, short of writing something. And to what end? Giving Alison Graham her P45 would only result in giving the RT Writer job to....(thinks vainly of a name)...Sarah Kennedy.

I have chronic toothache, btw, and spent most of today in an emergency dental ward. None of this should be taken too seriously. Oh alright - all of it.

Er, that last message. I am currently dosed up to the eyeballs with codeine and amoxycillin. As I make about as much sense as the cast of Tinsel Town, perhaps BBC2 could make a zeitgeist drama about my experiences?

"There's an afternoon quiz show on BBC2 which virtually rewards bullying with cold hard cash"

Is that the one co-devised by Cathy Dunning, or whatever the fuck her name was? She's the only person who should be bullied, preferably bludgeon with a dull, pointless object (something like her then)

to the corpses

I have to say that I would have to agree with Justin. I think the problem is bigger than just comedy, it is TV in general. I've made several postings on this forum expressing my views on shows like 'This Life', 'Big Brother' and their dreadful, misanthropic, lazy, slaggy ilk. I have absolutely no idea how one would go about changing this situation. A write in campaign, or an e-mailing campaign perhaps. Do we all follow some kind of party line? Or do you think we should e-mail our own specific complaints? I only ask because it is clear that you are trying to rouse us to some action. The question is do you want to lead it, or is this a 'You should all think for yourselves!' 'Yes, yes! We must all think for ourselves!' situation.

Secondly, I think it's only fair that a lot of the postings on this forum are daft chit chat. Nowt wrong with that. The idea that we should only contribute to the forum if it's going to contribute to the greater struggle is a tad utilitarian.

I don't watch TV anymore, don't listen to any radio apart from a few minutes of R4 in the morning, and the last live comedy I saw was League Against Tedium at the ICA last October. I'm not supporting the current comedy/media status quo at all. What more do you want me to not do?

Like most people (I suspect), I have a broad range of tastes and interests, so how is it that in this media marketplace of multi-channel television, niche radio and a considerable amount of print "journalism", that I can find very little of interest. The problem is most things are now the same. Because we are all the same. Obviously. We are all 16-24 years old, even if we're 40. August only means two things: Ibiza and Edinburgh. The 70s were crap, but in a lovely way, right?

If I get depressed looking at what's on the telly of an evening (and I'm 30), then I shudder to think what my mum (twice my age) and my gran (almost three times my age) get out of it. They pay the licence fee as well. They have wide tastes and interests. Why aren't they being catered for?

I've tried applying for trainee production jobs. I've tried sending scripts in. In both cases, I've genuinely wanted to be involved in something "great", something you'd set the video for, as I seem to remember Coogan saying about "Knowing Me Knowing You" when it went to BBC2.

I'm loathed to bring up Seinfeld yet again, but it's interesting that in the show's early days, both Seinfeld and co-creator/writer Larry David were absolutely insistent that NBC didn't fuck about with their material. David quit the show when episodes like the plotless but very funny "The Chinese Restaurant" (the cast wait for a table for 25 minutes - a very popular one with fans from its first showing in 1991) were met with network executives saying "We want to get Jerry and Elaine back together as a couple". The network relented, as David categorically refused to compromise with them on the content and look of the show. Admittedly, both Seinfeld and David were established as stand-ups and writers before "Seinfeld" began, but wouldn't it be fucking brilliant if everyone making a show quit the project once they felt they were being compromised?

Because if everyone stood up to the controllers, and commissioning editors and "comedy consultants", then we'd have some progress. I look forward to it.

The increasingly unpopular London Live broadcast a programme from the Edinburgh television festival at lunchtime today. Peter Curran (usually, an intelligent broadcaster) with guests Ruth Wrigley (executive producer: B** B*****), Kathryn Flett, Maurice Gran (talking about opportunities for TV writers....zzzz....heard it all before) and Andrea Catherwood from Channel 5 to talk about whether the news could be made "sexy".

Lost the will to live after Wrigley twatted on about the radical nature of BB, and how "everyone's talking about it". For perhaps the first time, a media figure (Curran) could be heard questioning the point of doing such a thing, and the fact that it really amounted to publicity for Channel 4. Wrigley did not sound happy about this, and Curran's points are hardly radical. But to hear someone in the media actually confronting one of the most insulting television programmes of recent years (which is saying something) was little short of revolutionary. He also played records by the likes of Toots & The Maytals and Wilco, which were great.

Alright, so my gran doesn't have to pay her licence anymore. Or maybe she gets a reduction - can't remember.

Jon, flippancy and apathy won't achieve or improve anything - take a look at what Justin has written and imagine how far things could go if we all tried to pull in the same direction...

Thank you Justin - I have tears in my eyes.

>I have tears in my eyes.

Me too - but that'll be the tooth.

TJ's Amazing Wild Conspiracy That Made All Of His Friends Laugh And His Parents Consider Referring Him For Psychiatric Help:

I think that a lot of the trends and attitudes that The Corpses and other people are identifying are only too frighteningly real, but as Justin says it's part of a greater malaise that's affecting ALL of popular culture - music (Craig "I Am The Reincarnation Of The Stylistics" David in the front of the NME while inside they moan about Clinic being 'too indie' etc), films, radio, and other cultural forms too. Blandness has come to predominate, and the general consensus among the Big Brother-watching, Lisa Riley-worshipping public appears to be that if you don't have mainstream tastes, then you have no right to be watching/listening/whatever to anything you want.

Myself I blame the rise of Oasis, which made dull unadventurousness and blatant point-missing plagiarism acceptable, and the death of Diana, which allowed the lovers of blandness to finally get the mass public one hundred percent on their side.

Although I accept that I am stark raving mad.

I'm with you TJ, except on one minor point - while I'm happy to describe Craig David as bollocks, it's quite extraordinary to find the NME actually putting a dance act of any kind on the front cover (unless it's the student-friendly Chemicals or Prodigy). Apparently, this all dates back to when they put Public Enemy on the front cover and got their lowest weekly sale of the year (1988, I think). So that's why any black music tends to get very short shrift in the weeklies - it's all about circulation after all! (Every year, when the readers poll results come out, is more proof. No, the readers aren't racists. But they often display extremely narrow musical minds.)

Anyway, that's music. Which has nothing to do with this site. Sorry, Corpses. But I think that's what I mean - this is a problem that overlaps into so many different areas of popular culture. Whatever happens (if anything), I just hope we're not too late.

to the corpses

Once again - I'm with Justin all the way. But my questions earlier on still stand. What do we do? People refusing to compromise is one thing - but you have to be on the inside first. Not all of us are writers - and I am only in a half-assed sense, which, if I have read your arguments correctly, should disbar me from doing it. So what next? I've already made a suggestion, which might sound bland, but it's the only practical protest I can think of.

Perhaps some of the forum goers could get together and have a writing session? Or we could send some articles in to the broadsheets? I know I'm clutching at straws and I'm interpreting your silence at my suggestions as indicative of the fact that there not worth commenting on - but I am moved by your arguments - I really would like TV to be better and I'd like to be part of the process of making it better. Come on - throw me a frickin' bone here!

I think this is a result of what happens when classroom sizes are too big and overpopulation means there is an unreachable mass only brought together by lowering standards and making things accessible to a wide berth. TV shows are being aimed at one inclusive loser, the supposed loser in all of us. Everyone can drop their standards to key into some drab pap going by the name of entertainment but trying to encompass everyone's tastes and everyone's scholastic leanings is an unforeseeable task especially for the terrestrial channels which are meant to be reflective and accessible to all.

That's why minority viewing is often so much better than the main bulk of TV. The 'specialist' shows only allowed to exist to reflect that portion of the wide berth which is noticeably different; the disabled, ethnic minorities etc. These shows are given a ticket away from the norm. 'Goodness, Gracious Me' for example is allowed to include references to places, customs, and religious procedures which would otherwise not be allowed on the BBC playlist so to speak. 'Blouse and skirt' for all it's cost-effective raggedness had some pensive discussions done in a comical yet not undermining way. And no sign of Richard Blackwood which shows its integrity.

I'd really like to know the full personality disorder of this 'loser' TV execs are aiming to please. Would it be that the BBC have only made decisions to sack Keith Chegwin and Noel Edmonds so they can base their programme marketing on people they know are watching?

The live comedy scene ain't much better. I was chatting to an up and coming comedian who'd religiously attended one of the stand up workshops which endlessly churn out the new 'Ian Cognito' every few months or so. Speaking to her it was quite obvious she was a very intelligent and mild mannered woman but once she got on stage she turned into some sort of Jongleurs seeking monster. She had informed me before going on that she felt experienced enough now to 'incorporate' swear words into her performance. But through nervousness she stuttered through the word 'cunt' which coincidentally was an essential punchline. The drunks in the audience weren't best pleased. They'd paid good money to see a cunt pulled off correctly.

>I think this is a result of what happens when classroom sizes are too big and overpopulation means there is an unreachable mass only brought together by lowering standards and making things accessible to a wide berth.

YES!
Throughout my education, creativity was never encouraged as much as it *should* have been.
I've always tried to look at things objectively, but unfortunately, this puts me in a minority group.
Throughout high school particularly, the extent of media influence in dictating the personality of the masses, became blatantly obvious.

There is *no* easy way to change the standard of comedy or television, music or the arts in general, because in order to do so, you have to change the very essence of modern society, which would mean changing the way people *think.*

The majority of teachers I know are unhappy with their jobs due to working conditions. Not all of them *care* about fostering independent thought and not all of them have independent thought of their own to start off with.

Not put as succinctly as I'd like, but how do you think this fits in to the scheme of things, Corpses?

Am I way off the mark?

Justin and Al -

what you are objecting to is just the shallowness of popular culture per se. The solution is just to turn your backs on it and cultivate more refined tastes.

I'm not kidding.

>Justin and Al -
>
>what you are objecting to is just the shallowness of popular culture per se. The solution is just to turn your backs on it and cultivate more refined tastes.
>
>I'm not kidding.

What you are talking is absolute rubbish. Over the last century populart culture has offered us many marvellous pieces of art. 'Revolver', 'Pet Sounds', 'The Third Man', 'Edge of Darkness', 'Monty Python' etc, etc. The high/low culture argument should be left where it belongs - the nineteenth century.

I'm not kidding either.

I actually think we're in a very exciting time for comedy right now. Because there's so much eleventh-rate unimaginative cockjuice around at the moment, it's breeding a healthy attitude of contempt. And from this contempt and boredom will come performers and writers keen to do something new and different. It may take a while.....but it'll be worth it.

>>what you are objecting to is just the shallowness of popular culture per se. The solution is just to turn your backs on it and cultivate more refined tastes.
>>
Newsnight these days is virtually every bit as offensively dumbed-down as the ITN Evening News (confrontational debate means Paxman believing in his own cult of personality and shouting at people - see that pointless clip of him asking the arsehole Michael Howard if he threatened to overrule [Derek Lewis]). Most current 'indie' music (ie NME rock) is self-indulgent and drab nonsense. Some dance music is fantastic, but you're only allowed to enjoy it by thinking Pete Tong and Judge Jules should be knighted. The Edinburgh Festival is probably a good thing, but means absolutely nothing if you receive second-hand coverage from the media.

I'm beginning to see where the Corpses are coming from regarding their attitude to "the plebs" (a term I've been critical of in the past). An example:

That Del falling through the bar bit on Fools & Horses. Or the chandelier bit. Funniest thing in a sitcom ever, right? Or so you would think, judging from its ubiquity in clip shows, or polls compiled by so-called "experts". Funny how verbal clips are rather less abundant in such polls - why is that? Do the "pundits" think that the public don't appreciate such moments? But here are ten easily more amusing (verbal) bits from Fools & Horses...

1) "They're broken lawn-mower engines."

2) "Vot is your name?"

3) "I'm trying to get the Dukes of 'Azzard, Delboy."

4) "There's a Rhino loose in the city." (The whole scene, if you please.)

5) "I looked like a wand!"

6) "Because the other one's being repaired."

7) "No - I remember Torchy The Battery Boy, though."

8) "Grass - I've never smoked astroturf."

9) "I heard that Boycie was a Jaffa."

10) "I wanted an Emperor-burger, and I've got a Cheeseburger." (Etc.)

Why were none of these included? (Or at least another twenty examples I could have chucked in at this point?) Because they would involve explaining the context of the tightly-written sitcom format? Oh dear - can't have that, and besides, explaining it to those stupid viewers wouldn't work. Just show the bit of Del falling through the bar. Hilarious. There! All done. Now we are all the same.

Do you see?

I love populist stuff when it's done well (Madonna - forget American Pie, though, One Foot In The Grave, Groundhog Day, Terminator, Morecambe & Wise, The Beatles, Cracker). I remember that, growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, it was possible to find stuff you liked just by flicking through the three (or later, four) channels and you'd find something that was at least diverting. Radio 1, for all its faults in the 80s, at least had a broad enough agenda to try and cater for everyone (all right, for me, there was only really the Top 40, Annie Nightingale, Peel and Kid Jensen/Janice Long, but you see what I mean...)

I hope it's not just me getting old. But why should I have to work so hard to avoid Robbie Williams?

By the way, FR, thought your 1983 Eurohit "Words" was a very weak effort indeed.

Wholeheartedly agree with Justin on the Delboy falling through bar bit. It's rapidly rivalling the Blue Peter defecating pachyderm as the most-otfen-repeated bit of BBC back-patting ever.

I'm not past caring, and I never will be. All my life I have railed against and defined myself against the blandness of mainstream tastes, and show no signs of mellowing with age. As long as there is a cultural battle to be fought, I'll be in the thick of it. The current state of comedy truly offends me, and I refuse to take it lying down when the 11 O'Clock Show gets awarded another series despite declining ratings, when the people it has (badly) stolen most of its jokes from are having a successful show cancelled (Lee and Herring), all but fogotten by the goldfish-memory public as he actually takes some time and effort before launching a new project (Iannucci), and seeing one of his best works gathering dust on a shelf due to the pathetic objections of crybaby lawsuit celebrities and the angry of Tunbridge Wells brigade (Morris).

By the way Justin - my 'zine regularly features jokes at the expense of FR David. This bizarre similarity between out mindsets is truly unsettling...

>I actually think we're in a very exciting time for comedy right now. Because there's so much eleventh-rate unimaginative cockjuice around at the moment, it's breeding a healthy attitude of contempt. And from this contempt and boredom will come performers and writers keen to do something new and different. It may take a while.....but it'll be worth it.

I think Mr Griffiths is right. I see a bright future of comedy, TV and the media in general happening when people finally get fucked off with mainstream pap and do something about it. The revolution is coming, maybe the revolution is starting here? The thing is it WILL take years, maybe even decades. Maybe we'll all be dead by then or at least very old, but at least Simon Pegg, Ross Noble, Dave Gorman, Danny Wallace, Robbie Williams, Jane Root, the cast of Big Brother and all the rest of them will be older and deader! At least they will in my case, coz I'm 22. So there.

BTW have you noticed how comedians always say that before they were famous they didn't like the comedy of the time? Ie. The Pythons/The Goodies didn't like the satire boom much, Griff Rhys Jones wasn't really into the comedy that was big in the mid 70s, etc. Then again the Pythons did like The Goons and The Goodies liked Buster Keaton. Alright so maybe that theory, that is mine, doesn't hold up entirely, but it is partially correct!

Miss Is A Carrot bracket Bean close-bracket.

Blimey- some intelligent opinions at last. 'Ain't it lovely? :)

My response:

I have to find myself in complete agreement with most of the other contributors to this debate and their views - but have to add that of course I care about comedy, (as well as broadcasting and media in general) but tell us HOW do you change things? Criticism isn't always effective, because most media companies are increasingly becoming little empires run by arrogant individuals - just look at Channel 4.
Furthermore, as others have pointed out, it is difficult to break into the system.

I agree that it is frightening that *The Day Today* seemed to have forecast the future of news broadcasting, and that KMKYWAP showed the people in front of the cameras as egotistical - no-one denies that, but HOW do you reverse the desperate state, not only of comedy, but culture and broadcasting in general? It is not that there was ever a Golden Age of broadcasting - that's goldfish memory syndrome, but this year has seen new levels of barrel scraping in humour (Up Rising, My Perfect World, The Fitz) that I've seen on television, as well as further dumbing-down in general.

...and finally, please don't attack the contributors as *bobble-hats* and rebuke us for chatting. It smacks of circular reasoning to encourage people to talk and exchange ideas to improve things - and then critise them for, erm,...talking and exchanging ideas to improve things - How do you expect us to plot the downfall of Jane Root, when we can not communicate ? !!! Some of us may yet meet up (see *SOTCAA Forumwriters Meeting* thread), and who knows, it could be start of something good and positive......

I don't disagree with anything in this thread, and I have some particuarly forthright views on the subject, which I'll post very shortly when I have a spare half-hour. But I'm just dashing off to an edit for a brand new Carlton production for Sky One which I just know you'll all love and cherish and praise, just as much as I do..... Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... Just wait til you hear my forthright opinions.....

We seem to be getting postings reminding us that we have no influence. We've never claimed to be able to change anything. But far better surely to keep your eyes open and howl at the moon over this current rotten media mood than to blindly carve your own little hole in the ruins and tell everyone else to 'lighten up'.

This appears to be the current thinking. Certain people are insisting that instead of whining about how bad things are we should instead get involved ourselves. What, to change the system from within? Or to make the best of a bad joke.

Other people are still suggesting we should be more 'positive' about new comedy. Like we have a duty to do so?

The whole 'Big Brother' thing is a disgrace. But nobody wants to speak out against it for fear that they'll miss out on their share of the fad.

And if, as the rumours suggest, the whole thing is fixed anyway, where does this leave us?

We have a choice. We can either stand up and say 'hold on...' (and keep saying this until people start to realise that you can't fool 'all of the people all of the time') or we can join in with the bullshit. Adopt a 'my house is in order' attitude and breed more apathy.

Yes I agree. Especially about Big Brother - I am still at war with C4. But I refer you to my earlier posting. What do you think we should do? Some of us are beginning to meet up - we could get organized. But some ideas would be nice.

Re: 'Only Fools And Horses' quotes earlier. Might I venture:

11. 'Other people get wise men bearing gifts and Christmas. We get a wally with a disease'.

I was amused that the final scene from Blackadder Goes Forth featured in the 'funniest sitcom moments ever'. I laughed long and hard at that. Reminds me of Morris talking about Ice Cube changing the lyrics to one of his songs in a British live performance to make reference to a stabbing that had occurred the previous night. The line 'Today I didn't even have to use my AK' became 'Today someone got stabbed in the UK' even though the proceeding line was 'I gotta say it was a good day.

As Morris said, he must have gone to bed that night a very confused man. Ditto RT editorial staff.

Justin - we loved your Alison Graham stuff.

>
>Justin - we loved your Alison Graham stuff.

Oh, it was a pleasure....maybe I'll think of a new idea soon....

>We have a choice. We can either stand up and say 'hold on...' (and keep saying this until people start to realise that you can't fool 'all of the people all of the time') or we can join in with the bullshit. Adopt a 'my house is in order' attitude and breed more apathy.

-----------

Fine. I agree with you 100%. But to whom do we say 'hold on'? At whose moon do we bark? We've got to channel our anger somehow for it to be worth doing.

I don't know how many of you are comedy performers (I am) or how many of you have appeared on TV or radio (I do from time to time) but if they are, then guys, we have no-one to blame but ourselves and no-one's going to change it but us. The first thing we have to do is develop a bit of bloody self-respect and stay out of projects we don't believe in. I've lost track of the number of conversations I've had with comedy buddies in which they've slagged off a TV show they themselves have appeared in or written for. It's by selling ourselves short like this that we let the industry believe that the lowest common denominator all the public want or deserve. "Being on telly" is NOT the be-all and end-all.
Excuse the pseudonym but I have enough enemies as it is.

Is it Iain Lee?


[ god, i'm sorry. really. i shouldn't have sold out like that. sackcloth and ashes time.]

or simon pegg?

or... or... Bernard Manning?


[okay. i'm stopping now.




really.










yes.]

Simon Pegg rocks. especially in spaced

I notice the list of 'funniest moments' in RT included an entire episode of The Young Ones ("Bambi"). Not much of a 'moment', surely?

And isn't the funny moment from Absolutly Fabulous about them getting drunk? Because that didn't happe every episode? (also less of a moment then the others as well)

NB - whoever mentioned Spaced:

http://www.spaced-out.org.uk/episode-guides/series-two/extras/

is where you'll find some great articles by someone very familiar...

If I was petty I'd have to say I hate 'Spaced' now. But I'm not. I still love it.

But what about Dan?

>But what about Dan?


You mean there's a sitcom about him?!

Not that there isn't the material for it, you understand...