The BBC used to wipe anything it could get its hands on, it seems. 'Doctor Who', Alan Bennet's first TV work, lots of stuff. (Though they never wipe the stuff one wants them to wipe.) What nobody seems to be able to tell me is: Back in the 70s when they were doing this burning of archive material, did the then BBC charter contain the clause that is in their current charter, the one that specifically forbids them from doing this until they have publically advertised the fact and offered the footage to anyone whop wants it? I'd assume it wasn't (and the clause was a later addition to the charter based on public outrage at the burnings), except that every time I hear about missing things it's always a case of "oh, well, the main archive thought Enterpirses had copies, and vice versa, so they both burned things thinking the others would be keeping them" - which sounds like a fudge.
The BBC routinely wiped anything they thought they couldn't flog any more to foreign TV stations. The wipings (urgh, what a nasty word!) took place 1972-78, and were not 'lost' as they like to call it, but were thrown into skips or furnaces, or the tapes were re-used, because they couldn't be bothered to store them anywhere.
As for Dr Who, a horrific total of 109 episodes, made between 1964-69 remain missing. In the USA, The Twilight Zone, which ended in 1964, exists in its entirety.
Thanks Auntie.
I bet they've kept every single shit schools' geography programme presented by Bill Grundy - why don't they release the Ox-Bow Lake Collection on DVD?
Two methods of BBC junking;
1 - Video tapes were wiped for re-use as the cost of tape then was very high. Before master video tapes were wiped, many shows were telerecorded onto 16mm film for "archival" and overseas sales purposes. Shows' producers were supposed to give consent to tapes being wiped, but it seems that many either weren't asked, or ignored. David Croft, for one, always used to refuse to give consent, and Dad's Army Series 2 was wiped when he happened to be on holiday. Barry Letts asked for speicific Dr Who to be kept, but was ignored.
2 - The 16mm telerecordings produced primarily for overseas sales were junked (burnt, thrown into skips etc) when sales of shows overseas started to dry up. If series of a show were no longer selling, onto the fire it went. Even if other episodes of the same show were still being sold.
To give you an idea about how mercilessly the BBC followed this policy, they destroyed their own tapes of their coverage of the 1969 moon landing. This is why, in the 'Top 100' style programmes, you get the same old NASA film being shown.
Terry Jones actually kept as much of his own stuff as he could, including Complete and Utter History of Britain, of which he kept a visual record. An episode of this did turn up recently, as it had been filed under 'history' instead of 'comedy'!
Tim Brooke-Taylor said in an interview in 1997 that there was an accountant at the BBC in the mid 70s who had this "great" cost-cutting measure of re-using video tapes. At the time they cost £50 each and so this certainly saved a lot of money for the BBC. Unfortunately a great number of things were wiped (like Doctor Who, several Goodies episodes, etc, etc), although the end bits of some of the wiped things can sometimes be found on the ends of various tapes.
I still want to know whether the clause in the current BBC charter, that forbids the wiping of old material until it's been offered around, was in there in the 70s. Anyone?
>>The BBC routinely wiped anything they thought they couldn't flog any more to foreign TV stations. The wipings (urgh, what a nasty word!) took place 1972-78, and were not 'lost' as they like to call it, but were thrown into skips or furnaces, or the tapes were re-used, because they couldn't be bothered to store them anywhere.
Wiping of tapes was actually taking place in the Sixties, and was an ogoing thing up to 1978. The 1972-78 you quote refers to the 16mm Film Telerecordings at BBC Enterprises, the junking of which allegedly started after the Fire Brigade carried out an inspection and told the BBC that the stacks of films all over the place was a fire hazard; they literally put them anywhere they could, stacked in corridors, in cupboards, on top of filing cabinets. You name it, there were cans there.
The Fire Brigade said this was a fire hazard and unless something was done about it, they would not give them some document or other, which would have meant that they would not be able to get insurance. So, they started to burn/skip anything they thought would be worthless. And by this, I mean of course the stuff that was not selling overseas, and therefore not making them ££££££.
Gregg - no. It didn't come into force until 1978.
Ah, a thread on my favourite subject. I'll add more later. Now, musssssssst eeeeeeeeeeat...
*checks watch*
Are you STILL eating?! Call Norris MacWhirter!
>So, basically, those pricks at the BBC only bothered to keep the shows once they realised they could make some money out of it, rather than any intrinsic artistic merit or achievement.
Yep, absolutely true. There is some contextual placing (though I would hesitate to ever call it justification) for the earlier wipings, as it was largely informed by the fact that material could not really be repeated in the early days of television, due to technological advances, pressure from the actors' union (who have got away with very little criticism over all this), problems with storage space etc. This was a very different world to today, and repeats and overseas sales were the only outlet for vintage programming, and that which they couldn't repeat or sell abroad was, more often than not, erased or junked as they had no further use in keeping hold of it. I can partly understand the reasoning behind how they felt at the time, but I still think it was a fucking disgrace,
> Those T.V stations in the U.S.A, then, saved Python from the same fate as Not Only But Also.
Something to be grateful to Americans for about Python. Never did I think I would see the day.
> A pity Peter Cook didn't have a big fan base there.
You do know the story of Peter Cook and the archives...?
>As for Dr Who, a horrific total of 109 episodes, made between 1964-69 remain missing. In the USA, The Twilight Zone, which ended in 1964, exists in its entirety.
>
>Thanks Auntie.
There are also many ITV companies that junked material, and alarmingly few people seem to know about this.
>I bet they've kept every single shit schools' geography programme presented by Bill Grundy - why don't they release the Ox-Bow Lake Collection on DVD?
Actually, the schools' TV archive has been decimated and very little - even up to about 1980 - was kept far beyond its natural shelf life. This, I've always assumed, is the reason that they kept reshowing old "Look And Read" stories with newly-filmed linking bits.
>Barry Letts asked for speicific Dr Who to be kept, but was ignored.
I bet it was 'The Daemons'.
>To give you an idea about how mercilessly the BBC followed this policy, they destroyed their own tapes of their coverage of the 1969 moon landing. This is why, in the 'Top 100' style programmes, you get the same old NASA film being shown.
To be fair(ish), I understand that the BBC's presentation was never recorded in the first place, which wasn't unusual for live television at the time. They recently managed to recover the audio track from a home recording made by a member of the public.
>Tim Brooke-Taylor said in an interview in 1997 that there was an accountant at the BBC in the mid 70s who had this "great" cost-cutting measure of re-using video tapes. At the time they cost £50 each and so this certainly saved a lot of money for the BBC. Unfortunately a great number of things were wiped (like Doctor Who, several Goodies episodes, etc, etc), although the end bits of some of the wiped things can sometimes be found on the ends of various tapes.
One thing that has always puzzled me - usually when programmes were wiped or junked, it involved entire series in one go. In the case of The Goodies, however, only a handful of random episodes were wiped. Anyone know why? Apart from 'Kitten Kong', that is, which I know the story behind.
>> A pity Peter Cook didn't have a big fan base there.
>
>You do know the story of Peter Cook and the archives...?
Didn't he offer to pay for all the future storage costs of the Not Only But Also tapes and buy replacement new tapes for the BBC?
You know, in my dreams, I pick up a newspaper that reports the discovery of the entire third series of Not Only But Also, plus all the remaining missing shows from the previous two. In reality.....that doesn't happen. Sometimes, dreams can be even better than a life.
>Didn't he offer to pay for all the future storage costs of the Not Only But Also tapes and buy replacement new tapes for the BBC?
That's the one. Then he asked for copies, and they said "no".
>>As for Dr Who, a horrific total of 109 episodes, made between 1964-69 remain missing. In the USA, The Twilight Zone, which ended in 1964, exists in its entirety.
>>
>>Thanks Auntie.
>
>There are also many ITV companies that junked material, and alarmingly few people seem to know about this.
But surely the BBC's junkings were a lot more 'orchestrated' than ITV's, and a lot more thorough. I mean, every Avengers episode exists from season 2 onwards, and that covers a period from 1962-9. And as most of season 1 went out live, it's not surprising that only 2 episodes of that remain.
So what major ITV series were junked? I know Timeslip (1970)exists complete, albeit in various formats.
>>To give you an idea about how mercilessly the BBC followed this policy, they destroyed their own tapes of their coverage of the 1969 moon landing. This is why, in the 'Top 100' style programmes, you get the same old NASA film being shown.
>
>To be fair(ish), I understand that the BBC's presentation was never recorded in the first place, which wasn't unusual for live television at the time. They recently managed to recover the audio track from a home recording made by a member of the public.
>
I think you're being way too lenient on the BBC...I mean, they didn't bother recording the MOON LANDING!!???!! Jesus CHRIST.
<< including Complete and Utter History of Britain, of which he kept a visual record. An episode of this did turn up recently, as it had been filed under 'history' instead of 'comedy'! >>
Actually two episodes have turned up - but one has the first couple of minutes missing. I've seen them both - v. interesting.
It is the same for the famous Jimi Hendrix appearance on the Lulu Show - where he famously stopped playing Hey Joe and burnt into Sunshine of Your Love, by Cream. This was only saved by the same furtive movements of dedicated trainspotters alledgedly.
As for the Moon Landing, that will be because we didn't actually land on the moon and NASA/CIA wanted to destroy all evidence of this and the BBC oblidged very nicely thank you...
Did it never occur to a national media institution that they were destroying valuable records? Historically even, it seems bloody lunatic to be part of such epic barbariosity...
>>Did it never occur to a national media institution that they were destroying valuable records? Historically even, it seems bloody lunatic to be part of such epic barbariosity...
And let's not forget that the ITV companies were just as guilty. An ABC documentary featuring an interview with Adolf Hitler's sister? Nah, that's not at all important. On the fire with it...
>although the end bits of some of the wiped things can sometimes be found on the ends of various tapes.
>
It's hard to find anything on the end of a tape that's been bulk erased, as most video tapes had to be given the ineffectiveness of the erase heads on early quad machines. Some fragments were found on ends of tapes given to the engineering dept to play with but this was much rarer than we have been led to believe. For the most part, the truth is far more interesting...
Most of the bits and pieces of archive VT that do survive at the BBC are thanks to a chap who worked at the Windmill Road archives called Bob Pratt. Whenever he was instructed to wipe anything, he tended to check each tape to see if anything was worth salvaging. If there were any clips that simply had to be kept, he dubbed them to one of the 2" or 1" reels he kept for making his own compilations and wiped the master. The compilation tapes were then stored in his locker. When he retired, his colleagues made sure that the BBC didn't junk the contents of the locker. As a result, it is him we have to thank for Hendrix on the Lulu Show and much else besides.
A much nicer story than the one in common currency, I'm sure you'll agree.
This evening's "Television In The Third Reich" seemed to show that even the Nazis did a better job of archiving their old TV footage than the BBC.
>This evening's "Television In The Third Reich" seemed to show that even the Nazis did a better job of archiving their old TV footage than the BBC.
Well, they had less of it to start with, didn't they, you unthinking, shit-stabbing cunting arsehole. Now fuck off.
>A much nicer story than the one in common currency, I'm sure you'll agree.
The Lulu/trains story has been repeated ad nauseum as you say. recent offenders are the '100 Bollocks' on C4 last week and the otherwise corking Whistle Test article in this month's Record Collector.
>The Lulu/trains story has been repeated ad nauseum as you say. recent offenders are the '100 Bollocks' on C4 last week and the otherwise corking Whistle Test article in this month's Record Collector.
>
Well, it has been presumably repeated because that was given out as the official reason, AIUI. We owe it to ourselves to ensure that the truth is better known than it currently is. These things were saved because there was an anorak who gave a shit and was in a position to do something about it. Sing Hosanna!